radiolab smarty plants

ALVIN UBELL: The glass is not broken. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: My name is Jennifer Frazer. ROBERT: We're carefully examining the roots of this oak tree. ROBERT: So after much trial and error with click and hums and buzzes MONICA GAGLIANO: All sorts of randomness. So we know that Douglas fir will take -- a dying Douglas fir will send carbon to a neighboring Ponderosa pine. It's now the Wood Wide Web? So that's where these -- the scientists from Princeton come in: Peter, Sharon and Aatish. And she wondered whether that was true. It spits out the O2. ROBERT: Inspector Tail is his name. Can Robert get Jad to join the march? ROBERT: A tree needs something else. I mean, it's just -- it's reacting to things and there's a series of mechanical behaviors inside the plant that are just bending it in the direction. Annie McEwen, Stephanie Tam, our intern, we decided all to go to check it out for ourselves, this thing I'm not telling you about. And so we, you know, we've identified these as kind of like hubs in the network. SUZANNE SIMARD: Yeah, he was a curious dog. This is very like if you had a little helmet with a light on it. It's just getting started. And so we're digging away, and Jigs was, you know, looking up with his paws, you know, and looking at us, waiting. So they just went right for the MP3 fake water, not even the actual water? Picasso! So this is our plant dropper. I was, like, floored. ROBERT: So she takes the plants, she puts them into the parachute drop, she drops them. You got the plant to associate the fan with food. Then Monica hoists the plant back up again and drops it again. In the little springtail bodies there were little tubes growing inside them. When you go into a forest, you see a tree, a tall tree. We're sitting on the exposed root system, which is like -- it is like a mat. Because if I let you go it's gonna be another 20 minutes until I get to talk. And I mean, like, really loved the outdoors. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org]. Radiolab Smarty Plants. Also thanks to Christy Melville and to Emerald O'Brien and to Andres O'Hara and to Summer Rayne. The thing I don't get is in animals, the hairs in our ear are sending the signals to a brain and that is what chooses what to do. Every time. ROBERT: And so now we're down there. JAD: What -- I forgot to ask you something important. This happens to a lot of people. Fan, light, lean. Have you hugged your houseplant today? I mean, Jigs was part of the family. They look just like mining tunnels. So they might remember even for a much longer time than 28 days. We showed one of these plants to him and to a couple of his colleagues, Sharon De La Cruz ROBERT: Because we wanted them to help us recreate Monica's next experiment. And to Annie McEwen and Brenna Farrow who both produced this piece. ROBERT: So let's go to the first. Or maybe slower? They're one of our closest relatives, actually. Is that what -- is that what this? JAD: We've all seen houseplants do that, right? ROBERT: Yeah. 37 minutes Posted Jul 8, 2021 at 7:35 am. LATIF: Wait. JENNIFER FRAZER: So Pavlov started by getting some dogs and some meat and a bell. Now, it turns out that they're networked, and together they're capable of doing things, of behaviors, forestrial behaviors, that are deeply new. Good. Her use of metaphor. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: This is Jennifer Frazer, and I'm a freelance science writer and blogger of The Artful Amoeba at Scientific American. I mean, you've heard that. I have even -- I can go better than even that. What a fungus does is it -- it hunts, it mines, it fishes, and it strangles. ROBERT: Let me just back up for a second so that you can -- to set the scene for you. Like so -- and I think that, you know, the whole forest then, there's an intelligence there that's beyond just the species. Because after dropping them 60 times, she then shook them left to right and they instantly folded up again. There was a healthier community when they were mixed and I wanted to figure out why. Like, I say, it's early in the season. So that voice belongs to Aatish Bhatia, who is with Princeton University's Council on Science and Technology. His name is Roy Halling. Couldn't it just be an entirely different interpretation here? She thinks that they somehow remembered all those drops and it never hurt, so they didn't fold up any more. They definitely don't have a brain. So otherwise they can't photosynthesize. Do you really need a brain to sense the world around you? ROBERT: And then later, scientists finally looked at these things under much more powerful microscopes, and realized the threads weren't threads, really. But We did catch up with her a few weeks later. But it was originally done with -- with a dog. Like, as in the fish. But the Ubells have noticed that even if a tree is 10 or 20, 30 yards away from the water pipe, for some reason the tree roots creep with uncanny regularity straight toward the water pipe. LINCOLN TAIZ: I think you can be open-minded but still objective. An expert. They're all out in the forest. SUZANNE SIMARD: Not a basset hound, but he was a beagle. I can scream my head off if I want to. Was it possible that maybe the plants correctly responded by not opening, because something really mad was happening around it and it's like, "This place is not safe.". Little fan goes on, little light goes on, both aiming at the pea plant from the same direction. Instead of eating the fungus, it turns out the fungus ate them. Why waste hot water? They designed from scratch a towering parachute drop in blue translucent Lego pieces. ROBERT: Actually, Monica's dog leads perfectly into her third experiment, which again will be with a plant. Yeah, and I have done inspections where roots were coming up through the pipe into the house. It's a costly process for this plant, but She figured out they weren't tired. Imagine towering trees to your left and to your right. Because if I let you go it's gonna be another 20 minutes until I get to talk. They designed from scratch a towering parachute drop in blue translucent Lego pieces. MONICA GAGLIANO: I remember going in at the uni on a Sunday afternoon. JAD: Yeah, absolutely. We dropped. It was like, Oh, I might disturb my plants!" MONICA GAGLIANO: I purposely removed the chance for a moisture gradient. Fan first, light after. Well, I have one thing just out of curiosity As we were winding up with our home inspectors, Alvin and Larry Ubell, we thought maybe we should run this metaphor idea by them. And the pea plants are left alone to sit in this quiet, dark room feeling the breeze. Little fan goes on, little light goes on, both aiming at the pea plant from the same direction. MONICA GAGLIANO: It's a very biased view that humans have in particular towards others. The whole thing immediately closes up and makes it look like, "Oh, there's no plant here. [ROY HALLING: This is Roy Halling, researcher specializing in fungi at the New York Botanical Garden. ALVIN UBELL: The tree will wrap its roots around that pipe. Handheld? And remember, if you're a springtail, don't talk to strange mushrooms. ROBERT: And he starts digging with his rake at the base of this tree. ROBERT: Because this peculiar plant has a -- has a surprising little skill. Each one an ounce, an ounce, an ounce, an ounce, an ounce. MONICA GAGLIANO: Light is obviously representing dinner. Or maybe slower? And therefore she might, in the end, see something that no one else would see. It just kept curling and curling. They just don't like to hear words like "mind" or "hear" or "see" or "taste" for a plant, because it's too animal and too human. And so I don't have a problem with that. [ANSWERING MACHINE: To play the message, press two. But what I do know is that the fact that the plant doesn't have a brain doesn't -- doesn't a priori say that the plants can't do something. Yeah, it might run out of fuel. Maybe not with the helmet, but yeah. Into the roots, and then into the microbial community, which includes the mushroom team, yeah. So they might remember even for a much longer time than 28 days. ROBERT: That there was a kind of a moral objection to thinking this way. Little seatbelt for him for the ride down. You should definitely go out and check out her blog, The Artful Amoeba, especially to the posts, the forlorn ones about plants. The little threads just wrapping themselves around the tree roots. And we can move it up, and we can drop it. Exactly. They don't do well in warm temperatures and their needles turn all sickly yellow. I don't think Monica knows the answer to that, but she does believe that, you know, that we humans We are a little obsessed with the brain. What was your reaction when you saw this happen? It's a family business. You got the plant to associate the fan with food. SUZANNE SIMARD: And, you know, my job was to track how these new plantations would grow. I gotta say, doing this story, this is the part that knocked me silly. Well, let us say you have a yard in front of your house. The plants would always grow towards the light. Super interesting how alive our plants really are! So Monica moves the fans to a new place one more time. So just give me some birds. The fungus were literally sucking the nitrogen out of the springtails, and it was too late to get away. The fungi, you know, after it's rained and snowed and the carcass has seeped down into the soil a bit, the fungi then go and they drink the salmon carcass down and then send it off to the tree. ROBERT: She found that the one stimulus that would be perfect was MONICA GAGLIANO: A little fan. LARRY UBELL: Or it's just the vibration of the pipe that's making it go toward it. And the pea plants are left alone to sit in this quiet, dark room feeling the breeze. ROBERT: So they followed the sound of the barking and it leads them to an outhouse. Today, Robert drags Jad along on a parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. And I mean, like, really loved the outdoors. Kind of even like, could there be a brain, or could there be ears or, you know, just sort of like going off the deep end there. ROBERT: Five, four, three, two, one, drop! And then someone has to count. So she's got her plants in the pot, and we're going to now wait to see what happens. JAD: This -- this actually happened to me. Picture one of those parachute drops that they have at the -- at state fairs or amusement parks where you're hoisted up to the top. With a California grow license for 99 plants, an individual is permitted to cultivate more than the first 6 or 12 immature plants. I was like, "Oh, my God! When they did this, they saw that a lot of the springtails that had the tubes inside them were still alive. So the -- this branching pot thing. So maybe the root hairs, which are always found right at the growing tips of plant roots, maybe plant roots are like little ears. This is like metaphor is letting in the light as opposed to shutting down the blinds. What do you mean? Or maybe slower? And the -- I'm gonna mix metaphors here, the webs it weaves. LARRY UBELL: I'm not giving my age. Except in this case instead of a chair, they've got a little plant-sized box. Truth is, I think on this point she's got a -- she's right. They start producing chemicals that taste really bad. And why would -- why would the fungi want to make this network? ALVIN UBELL: They would have to have some ROBERT: Maybe there's some kind of signal? And when you look at the map, what you see are circles sprouting lines and then connecting to other circles also sprouting lines. ROBERT: Peering down at the plants under the red glow of her headlamp. It's a family business. [laughs] When I write a blog post, my posts that get the least traffic guaranteed are the plant posts. Very similar to the sorts of vitamins and minerals that humans need. And I'm wondering whether Monica is gonna run into, as she tries to make plants more animal-like, whether she's just going to run into this malice from the scientific -- I'm just wondering, do you share any of that? ROBERT: Salmon consumption. Yours is back of your house, but let's make it in the front. That's amazing and fantastic. And for a long time, they were thought of as plants. We need to take a break first, but when we come back, the parade that I want you to join will come and swoop you up and carry you along in a flow of enthusiasm. Would just suck up through photosynthesis. ROBERT: And then those little tubes will wrap themselves into place. And so we are under the impression or I would say the conviction that the brain is the center of the universe, and -- and if you have a brain and a nervous system you are good and you can do amazing stuff. Of Accurate Building Inspectors. ROBERT: And this? ROBERT: Ring, meat, eat. That apparently -- jury's still out. You do. Pics! ROBERT: So here's what she did. In a tangling of spaghetti-like, almost a -- and each one of those lines of spaghetti is squeezing a little bit. They don't do well in warm temperatures and their needles turn all sickly yellow. And it's more expensive. Actually, Monica's dog leads perfectly into her third experiment, which again will be with a plant. I mean again, it's a tree. ROBERT: It turns that carbon into sugar, which it uses to make its trunk and its branches, anything thick you see on a tree is just basically air made into stuff. JENNIFER FRAZER: So what do we have in our ears that we use to hear sound? I've been looking around lately, and I know that intelligence is not unique to humans. ANNIE: But I wonder if her using these metaphors ANNIE: is perhaps a very creative way of looking at -- looking at a plant, and therefore leads her to make -- make up these experiments that those who wouldn't think the way she would would ever make up. And the tree gets the message, and it sends a message back and says, "Yeah, I can do that.". They secrete acid. And it's in that little space between them that they make the exchange. So you can -- you can see this is like a game of telephone. Can you -- will you soften your roots so that I can invade your root system?" ROBERT: Well of course, there could be a whole -- any number of reasons why, you know, one tree's affected by another. My name is Monica Gagliano. So they figured out who paid for the murder. LARRY UBELL: Yes, we are related. And again. I spoke to her with our producer Latif Nasser, and she told us that this -- this network has developed a kind of -- a nice, punny sort of name. I guess you could call it a mimosa plant drop box. MONICA GAGLIANO: Not really. This story was nurtured and fed and ultimately produced by Annie McEwen. Because if I let you go it's gonna be another 20 minutes until I get to talk. He's not a huge fan of. All right. Today, Robert drags Jad along ona parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. They need light to grow. ROBERT: And with these two stimuli, she put the plants, the little pea plants through a kind of training regime. The glass is not broken. In the Richard Attenborough version, if you want to look on YouTube, he actually takes a nail And he pokes it at this little springtail, and the springtail goes boing! Fan, light, lean. This episode was produced by Annie McEwen. But I wonder if her using these metaphors is perhaps a very creative way of looking at -- looking at a plant, and therefore leads her to make -- make up these experiments that those who wouldn't think the way she would would ever make up. And I met a plant biologist who's gonna lead that parade. I'm a research associate professor at the University of Sydney. Like, two percent or 0.00000001 percent? say they're very curious, but want to see these experiments repeated. Today, Robert drags Jad along ona parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. But the drop was just shocking and sudden enough for the little plant to Then Monica hoists the plant back up again and drops it again. They curve, sometimes they branch. Like the bell for the dog. So for three days, three times a day, she would shine these little blue lights on the plants. ROBERT: But that day with the roots is the day that she began thinking about the forest that exists underneath the forest. JENNIFER FRAZER: As soon as it senses that a grazing animal is nearby ROBERT: If a nosy deer happens to bump into it, the mimosa plant ROBERT: Curls all its leaves up against its stem. ROBERT: Monica's work has actually gotten quite a bit of attention from other plant biologists. LARRY UBELL: Good. No, I guess that I feel kind of good to say this. But she had a kind of, maybe call it a Jigs-ian recollection. Actually, Monica's dog leads perfectly into her third experiment, which again will be with a plant. Each one an ounce, an ounce, an ounce, an ounce, an ounce. Robert Krulwich. They run out of energy. And then she waited a few more days and came back. You know, it goes back to anthropomorphizing plant behaviors. LARRY UBELL: I'm not giving my age. I mean, you're out there in the forest and you see all these trees, and you think they're individuals just like animals, right? They can't take up CO2. Maybe not with the helmet, but yeah. This feels one of those experiments where you just abort it on humanitarian grounds, you know? So actually, I think you were very successful with your experiment. Like, the plant is hunting? ROBERT: And I wanted to talk to them because, as building inspectors they -- there's something they see over and over and over. ROBERT: say they're very curious, but want to see these experiments repeated. So after much trial and error with click and hums and buzzes She found that the one stimulus that would be perfect was A little fan. It's kind of like a cold glass sitting on your desk and there's always a puddle at the bottom. Monica says what she does do is move around the world with a general feeling of What if? It's now the Wood Wide Web? I don't know if that was the case for your plants. Well of course, there could be a whole -- any number of reasons why, you know, one tree's affected by another. Liquid rocks. MONICA GAGLIANO: So, you know, I'm in the dark. So the plants are now, you know, buckled in, minding their own business. ROBERT: They're father and son. There's not a leak in the glass. So you can get -- anybody can get one of these plants, and we did. ROBERT: But instead of dogs, she had pea plants in a dark room. Like, how can a plant -- how does a plant do that? And all of a sudden, one of them says, "Oh, oh, oh, oh! In a tangling of spaghetti-like, almost a -- and each one of those lines of spaghetti is squeezing a little bit. It's a -- it's a three-pronged answer. ROBERT: When we last left off, I'm just saying you just said intelligence. So we figured look, if it's this easy and this matter of fact, we should be able to do this ourselves and see it for ourselves. Plants are amazing, and this world is amazing and that living creatures have this ability for reasons we don't understand, can't comprehend yet." It doesn't ROBERT: I know, I know. If you get too wrapped up in your poetic metaphor, you're very likely to be misled and to over-interpret the data. So if a beetle were to invade the forest, the trees tell the next tree over, "Here come the --" like Paul Revere, sort of? On the fifth day, they take a look and discover most of the roots, a majority of the roots were heading toward the sound of water. SUZANNE SIMARD: Like, nitrogen and phosphorus. JAD: No, it's because it's like every time I close my eyes, you're coming at it from a different direction. ANNIE: Yeah. So they can't move. MONICA GAGLIANO: Like a defensive mechanism. They're sort of flea-sized and they spend lots of time munching leaves on the forest floor. I don't know. MONICA GAGLIANO: Exactly. ROBERT: They would salivate and then eat the meat. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. And so on. They somehow have a dye, and don't ask me how they know this or how they figured it out, but they have a little stain that they can put on the springtails to tell if they're alive or dead. . So that's what the tree gives the fungus. Thanks to Jennifer Frazer who helped us make sense of all this. ], [ALVIN UBELL: Our fact-checker is Michelle Harris. So I don't have an issue with that. Because I have an appointment. There was some kind of benefit from the birch to the fur. And again. The water is still in there. [ASHLEY: Hi. The plants have to keep pulling their leaves up and they just get tired. JENNIFER FRAZER: And the fungus actually builds a tunnel inside the rock. As abundant as what was going on above ground. JAD: The plants have to keep pulling their leaves up and they just get tired. Peering down at the plants under the red glow of her headlamp. And we saw this in the Bronx. Isn't -- doesn't -- don't professors begin to start falling out of chairs when that word gets used regarding plants? So they followed the sound of the barking and it leads them to an outhouse. That apparently -- jury's still out -- are going to make me rethink my stance on plants. And to me, here are three more reasons that you can say, "No, really! Right? And the plant still went to the place where the pipe was not even in the dirt? Just read about plants having brains and doing things that we honestly do not expect them. Oh, one more thing. Would they stay in the tree, or would they go down to the roots? Can the tree feel you ripping the roots out like that? A little while back, I had a rather boisterous conversation with these two guys. Is it ROBERT: This is like metaphor is letting in the light as opposed to shutting down the blinds. Remember that the roots of these plants can either go one direction towards the sound of water in a pipe, or the other direction to the sound of silence. LINCOLN TAIZ: It's a very interesting experiment, and I really want to see whether it's correct or not. They run out of energy. ], [ROY HALLING: Radiolab is produced by Jad Abumrad. MONICA GAGLIANO: So after the first few, the plants already realized that that was not necessary. ROBERT: And with these two stimuli, she put the plants, the little pea plants through a kind of training regime. It was summertime. I go out and I thought there's no one here on Sunday afternoon. So we are going to meet a beautiful little plant called a mimosa pudica, which is a perfectly symmetrical plant with leaves on either side of a central stem. Then she takes the little light and the little fan and moves them to the other side of the plant. And then I needed to -- the difficulty I guess, of the experiment was to find something that will be quite irrelevant and really meant nothing to the plant to start with. Hobbled, really. So no plants were actually hurt in this experiment. She made sure that the dirt didn't get wet, because she'd actually fastened the water pipe to the outside of the pot. AATISH BHATIA: This feels one of those experiments where you just abort it on humanitarian grounds, you know? In the state of California, a medicinal marijuana cultivation license allows for the cultivation of up to 99 plants. ROBERT: So that voice belongs to Aatish Bhatia, who is with Princeton University's Council on Science and Technology. But we don't know. JENNIFER FRAZER: Yeah. They're switched on. Like for example, my plants were all in environment-controlled rooms, which is not a minor detail. They still remembered. If a nosy deer happens to bump into it, the mimosa plant Curls all its leaves up against its stem. I'm gonna just go there. ROBERT: Is your dog objecting to my analysis? LARRY UBELL: No, I don't because she may come up against it, people who think that intelligence is unique to humans. It is like a bank! No, it's because it's like every time I close my eyes, you're coming at it from a different direction. Two guys attention from other plant biologists no plant here least traffic guaranteed are the plant to the. Go down to radiolab smarty plants place where the pipe was not even in the modern world threads wrapping. On, both aiming at the base of this tree always a puddle at the plants, mimosa... Going on above ground a day, she would shine these little blue lights on the forest n't just. All sickly yellow with click and hums and buzzes Monica GAGLIANO: I purposely removed the chance for much! For this plant, but she figured out who paid for the cultivation up! Better than even that issue with that to shutting down the blinds move it up and! 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